The link to the podcast can be accessed at the top of the page. A full transcript of the podcast can be accessed below. Thank you for listening, and happy marketing!
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Jeromy Sonne:
Welcome to the Agency Founder podcast by Moonshine Marketing. Every single week, we interview successful founders of marketing agencies at different points in their journey to pass on their victories, defeats, challenges and lessons learned to help you take your agency to new heights. This week, we’re speaking with Taylor Holiday of Common Thread Collective, a digital growth agency. Taylor, thanks so much for being here.
Taylor Holiday:
Yeah, absolutely, Jeromy, excited to jump on and share. I love that intro about victories, defeats and lessons so definitely have many of all of those things so hopefully we can offer something of value here.
Jeromy Sonne:
I think that really, it’s more about just that you have slightly more victories than defeats is how you move forward like I don’t think-
Taylor Holiday:
Exactly. Get the 51% and you’ll do all right.
Jeromy Sonne:
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So I really appreciate you coming on the show. You’re a big fan of traffic campaigns, right? That’s how we connected.
Taylor Holiday:
I figured that had to be the intro for how we ended up here together. Yeah.
Jeromy Sonne:
Yeah. So basically for background, for people that don’t know, Taylor and I had a very… I would say, a very good and productive discussion of different points of opinion. Of course, he’s probably right, but I’ll never admit it, that traffic campaigns aren’t effective for conversions focused campaigns. And we had a good exchange back and forth on Twitter and messaged him afterwards and said, “Hey, I appreciate the exchange.” And he’s like, “Yeah.” And I go, “Do you want to be on a podcast?” And so here we are.
Taylor Holiday:
Yeah. And I so appreciate you reaching out too, Jeromy because one of the things that’s so hard about Twitter is we don’t know each other. We’ve never met. For all you know, I’m a horrible asshole and intonation is so difficult to sort of sort through so it’s always great when someone on the back end of a conversation like that, just sort of humanizes it and just realizes that like, “Nope, we’re actually both good dudes and would love to chat with each other and be helpful,” and sometimes that gets lost in the Twittersphere. So I have found actually repeatedly though, that in our community and I say our community being e-commerce Twitter, I guess calling that a little subculture, if you will. That is consistently been my experience though, is that people are eager to debate publicly for the sake of the community and then on the back end are also incredibly kind, gracious and generous as well. So it’s become more and more safe of an environment for me as I’ve gotten to know more people directly just that there’s a lot of good humans there.
Jeromy Sonne:
Yeah, absolutely. I think that it’s an important point to definitely humanize it because I think that you can have really intense debates, but you do lose some of the nuance of having an in-person discussion with tone and things like that as well, where you’re going to have an intense debate that’s really productive and people are really trying to just genuinely learn from one another and yeah, I think we were able to achieve that which is cool. So, yeah. Anyways, so tell me about yourself a little bit. How did you sort of get into marketing? What’s your background pre-Common Thread Collective?
Taylor Holiday:
Yeah, so definitely very much an accidental entrepreneur. I grew up playing baseball my whole life so I was a professional baseball player, played in the Yankees Organization out of college. And then I met my wife and trust in South Carolina playing for the Charleston RiverDogs and then that summer was my last year. I got released by the Yankees. And I had a really good friend, my childhood best friend that he and his brother were starting a company, a company called Power Balance. I don’t know if you remember those silicone wristbands that athletes were running around wearing for a minute back in the day. So when I was finishing up my last year of school, because I was drafted as a junior in college, I went back and was finishing up my last year of school and in between, I would show up at my friend, Josh and his brother Troy’s little office and it was the three of us and our buddy Ryan, one other person and we would mainly mess around.
Taylor Holiday:
But my job was to show up in between class, print the orders off the website, package them up and take them to the post office. And it started as four of us in a little room, sewing together wristbands, ironing on logos, mainly just messing around and then through one of the craziest rise, that’s a story totally in and of itself, that company went from zero to 60 million in about 22 months. It was an absolute explosion. And when that happened, we sort of looked around and went, “Wow, this is a real business. What’s your job going to be? What’s your job going to be?” And they looked at me and they said, “Well, you’re the youngest person so why don’t you figure out e-commerce social media and you know some famous people so why don’t you be our influencer marketing manager too?”
Taylor Holiday:
And I was like, “Well, okay.” And that sent me to Google, “How do you set up a Facebook page? And what is Magento?” And the rest was history and that was almost 12 years ago now. And I just happened because one, I was competitive and didn’t want people to think I was in the company because I was friends with the guy who started it. So I had a little bit of a chip on my shoulder so I became obsessed with learning everything I could. And it just happened to be that that became a valuable skill in the world so I got really lucky in that sense. So from there, I actually went and joined our agency of record that I had hired. Their founder and I became really close friends. His name’s Zubin Mowlavi, he ran an agency called Lucid Fusion that was just acquired by VaynerMedia.
Taylor Holiday:
And he and I became really close friends. And it’s funny because I used to think the agency business was really stupid. I would always tell him, “Why are you doing this? You’re just building somebody else’s dreams. Why don’t you build something of your own?” And he was like, “Okay, well, why don’t you come over? I’ll let you use all of our internal resources and you can run a lab inside of our agency and your job will be to try and create passive revenue for the agency.” So he basically gave me a blank check to come in and use their internal resources and build stuff. And that was one, it was my first sort of entrepreneurial step personally. It was a huge level of trust from somebody that I just deeply appreciate now in my life. And I got to spend a year and a half just trying stuff from building software interfaces for med device companies to building social commerce products to doing all sorts of weird things, Facebook acts back in the day on pages, just all sorts of weird things.
Taylor Holiday:
And then at that time, my good friend of mine named Jordan Palmer, he and I are the co-founders of Common Thread Collective. He brought me a project for a baseball apparel company that one of our friends named Brian Garofalow, who’s now the CMO of Igloo Coolers, was starting. And Jordan played eight years in the NFL. He is 6’5″, super charismatic, the most just relational person in the world and the way how he’s described us and why we’re such a good compliment for each other is, he’s great at galas and I’m great behind the computer and so it was like, “You go find the business, I’ll do the work. I know I’ve got this sort of experience in marketing and growing a business,” and so that became from there our journey into CTC.
Taylor Holiday:
And we knew that we always wanted to get back to building brands because that’s really our passion is we fell in love with entrepreneurship. We fell in love with the process of growing a business. And so CTC was always part of the vision. And now, we have sort of this ecosystem where we have the agency in Common Thread Collective. We have four by 400 where we acquire and operate our own businesses. We own four of our own brands there. We had a company called Left Brain Logistics that does pick, pack and ship and e-com, a company called Tell Me Your Dreams that does culture development. So we have this really ratty ecosystem now about helping build and develop businesses that was sort of born out of just our passion for seeing companies come to life based on our own experiences.
Jeromy Sonne:
That’s a really incredible journey. I love hearing about all of that. I have kind of a weird question that popped up to me in the middle of it. Do you think that former athletes or athletes make really great entrepreneurs because I kind of see that a lot. It’s professional athletes or semiprofessional athletes becoming very high performing entrepreneurs. Do you think there’s some sort of common DNA thread there? Not to be too punny with Common Thread and thread.
Taylor Holiday:
We have this value inside of CTC and it’s this idea that everybody’s the entrepreneur of their own life. And one of the things that sports forces you to deal with early on, especially as you get to the professional level is that you, your body, your skill are the business and your care for the direction of your life is reflective of how far that “business” will go. And so from a very early age, as an athlete, you’re sort of built into this mindset that your discipline, your behaviors, and very clearly the outcomes you create define your opportunity. And so I think that sort of wiring is very ingrained into athletes that we exist to produce outcomes and there’s a discipline and process that affects those outcomes that is really useful in building a business. So I don’t know that it’s a one-to-one all athletes are great entrepreneurs by any means, but I definitely think that there are disciplines and lessons that are learned in athletics and sports that are really useful for entrepreneurship.
Jeromy Sonne:
Yeah. Have you ever read Nick Saban’s book where he talks about the process and how the goal is to just basically dominate every play and only focus on what you’re doing in front of you and give out, do you think that there’s a lot of merit to that? Would that be your experience?
Taylor Holiday:
Yeah, so I think that’s exactly sort of the mindset is that there’s so much that… and Nick Saban’s an incredible coach and have you ever seen the Bill Belichik technique, Nick Saban videos of the two, the HBO special that they did on the ?
Jeromy Sonne:
No. I haven’t seen the videos of that. I’ve seen some things that Bill Belichik’s written about Nick Saban which has been interesting.
Taylor Holiday:
So they’re both incredible. I’m more of a Dabo Swinney guy to be honest, but I think the methodology is right here, which is this idea that execution on the next right play at the next right moment, blocking out all the noise of everything else that surrounds you and just executing against the plan over and over and over and over again and the sum total of all of those behaviors. It’s sort of what we started this podcast with. Right? Which is that you’re going to win, you’re going to lose, you’re going to win, you’re going to lose. But if you do the next right thing and you do it, you have attention to detail and you focus, the sum of that over a long period of time is likely going to be a positive outcome. Right? In baseball, it’s sort of a cliche to say that you fail 70% of the time, but that’s sort of the reality. And I think that sort of mindset of being able to try, fail, try again, fail, try again, fail and just repeatedly go after learning and improving is a really, really valuable skillset.
Jeromy Sonne:
Yeah, absolutely. I think I would completely agree and not to harp on this point too much because there’s a lot of interesting things I want to talk to you about, but it’s interesting too. I think that the mindset of that win/fail ratio, you think about somebody on Wall Street, if they got 60% of their investments, right? They’d be illuminary, right? They’d be the greatest investor of all time. So I think it would allow people to think that being a winner means that you have to win every single time. It’s no, you have to figure out how to engineer the outcome of winning most of the time and that’s what moves you forward.
Taylor Holiday:
And even it’s funny, I have this thing with my kids. So I have twin boys that are six and I have a daughter that’s three and especially the twin boys, they’re super competitive with each other and they’re hyperaware of the performance of the other person. And so we’ve developed this moniker that I’m trying to instill in them is that there’s no winning and losing. There’s winning and learning where you’re sort of trying to develop this ideology that this sense of like, “I lost. I’m bad,” this identity and shame that’s associated with losing is crippling. And if you can somehow figure out to turn that into, “My defeats are simply a ground for learning.” that is a superpower. If you can be that person that’s unafraid to lose and you see it only as an opportunity to refine your approach and do better the next time, you will become an incredibly powerful person.
Taylor Holiday:
One of my coaches used to always say, “The person that succeeds is the one that’s not afraid to look bad trying.” Right? And it’s sort of the same principle is that if you’re unafraid of failing, if you’re unafraid of the opinions of the people around you, then you’re going to have the opportunity to do so much more.
Jeromy Sonne:
No, that’s absolutely huge and I love hearing that. So shifting gears a little bit, tell me about kind of what was kind of the early days of starting CTC like? How did you get started? You kind of talk about how you were the one behind the screen. Your co-founder was the one that was kind of out at the galas. Talk to me about that dynamic in the early days.
Taylor Holiday:
Yeah. So I think in the early days of most agencies from anybody I’ve spoken with, there’s so much of it is just survival. You’re looking for the next opportunity. So we started, we had a relationship with a company called EvoShield. So EvoShield was a sports protective gear company down in Atlanta. And when we were running Power Balance, we became really close with the founders of that company. And so our first client as an agency was basically to be their in-house marketing leads. I had sort of come in and acted in some ways as their VP of marketing, where I was providing strategy and direction, and my team was handling some of it and then we did a lot of influencer deals where we brought in and built campaigns for them. So we spent a long time with this sort of core foundational client that we were more or less an outsourced extension of their team.
Taylor Holiday:
And then from there, we were able to start layering on more clients. And in the beginning, our business was a lot of consulting. We were not doing much on the execution. We would provide strategies ideation to internal teams for execution and the idea that we sort of were taking the market is like, “Hey, we’ve built businesses particularly into the sports world. We can help you navigate this landscape, build relationships with the right people, be introduced to the right vendors, the right retailers, that sort of thing. Initially, our company was called the Arch Network. And the idea was that we were going to be the bridge to the people that you need to know. We were going to play this intermediary role. So we did that for a lot of times, it was mainly just consulting, the two of us running around trying to get as many deals as we could.
Taylor Holiday:
And it’s funny because in those early days, we made a ton of money, but there was no equitable value in the thing at all, in the business at all. It was just like freelance consulting month to month and people were writing us nice checks, but the reality was the second they went away, the business had no value. There was no asset at all. And I think that’s fairly common in the early days is you’re just sort of trying to figure out who you are and what your value proposition is to the world.
Jeromy Sonne:
Yeah. Yeah. I’ve definitely referred to myself as a super freelancer in the past. Right? Because there might be a team and there might be all of these clients and revenue and whatever coming in, but ultimately, it’s just me doing stuff. You know what I mean? And then making that transfer to the agency has been an interesting journey for myself as well so I definitely feel you on that point.
Taylor Holiday:
Yeah. That’s very common. We did so many random things. One of our first deals was this company called Eat the Ball, which is I looked them up, they’re hilarious. They’re a German company that was started by one of the founders of Red Bull, a guy by the name of Norbert Kraihamer, really smart dude. They basically had built this way to bake bread and then pressure mold it into the shape of sports balls and then you could freeze it, but it was like you didn’t need to then. It was already made. It wasn’t like bread you had to make. It was already made and freezing could last a really long time. And so when this was one of our first clients and we actually did a deal where we brought Russell Wilson in as an equity partner in this company. And so we brokered this only, we worked with them for a very long time, but at one point we had this tiny little office that we used to call North Korea because it was so terrible. It was the worst office ever.
Taylor Holiday:
Inside of this office, we had a giant industrial freezer with all these packs of bread balls that we were running this seeding and sampling program to local little league fields and soccer fields on the weekends and we had no business. You’re scrambling to provide any value to these people that you can, but we just had no clarity on exactly who we were going to be and what the value proposition was and what we would take on and execute versus what we should make the client execute. And it was just a total scramble. And then we did a kickstarter for a movie called Work Horses, which was a documentary film about college athletes being paid and got all these incredible football players. It was just the most random set of marketing initiatives ever in the early days.
Jeromy Sonne:
Right. Yeah. I think that is pretty common like you said, right? You kind of take what you can get until you kind of hit this point where you’re like, “Okay, we kind of have a better sense of knowing who we are, knowing what we are really great at, what we want to focus down on.” Can you talk about when you hit that point and how you kind of moved into that opportunity away from kind of doing a lot of different things and just focusing down on the core super competency that you have, which obviously led you to a lot of success?
Taylor Holiday:
Yeah. So I think there was just this realization that the issue with consulting as a premise is that you’re really contingent on the internal team to execute your ideas. And what we kept running into is we were frustrated with the capacity of the internal teams to execute against the vision at the standard that we wanted for ourselves. And so we wanted to be able to take on more of the responsibility of the execution of our ideas. And so our other partner, Josh. So Josh was one of the founders of Power Balance. He married a woman by the name of Natalie Gulbis, who was an LPGA athlete. She was one of our sponsored athletes at Power Balance. And he had gone and after the end of that company, he had basically traveled the world with her caddying on tour. And then when he came back, we sat down and were like, “All right, Josh, Taylor can do the work. Jordan can find the business. We want you to build the operational structure of this business.”
Taylor Holiday:
So he really came on and said, “Okay, we’re going to think about hiring and teams and process and finance and figure out how we do it.” And so we all had sort of our areas of discipline as a set of partners. And then our fourth partner, Cory, was really helping me on the execution side. That was sort of this threshold that we cross where we’re like, “Okay, we need to define this.” And Josh sort of is also gifted in sort of helping us think through our mission, vision, values, clear communication service offering. So that was the step where we’re like, “Okay, we’re going to now work towards making this transition.” And don’t get me wrong, it’s been… So we are now five years into this journey and we still are constantly challenging our own clarity of approach and execution in these things. And we’ve come a long ways to that.
Taylor Holiday:
And one of the big things that happened along the way is my brother. So my brother’s name is Casey and he started a company called QALO. You may have seen those silicone wedding rings. When he came to me with this product idea, him and his partner, Ted, he was like, “Hey, we’ve got this idea.” And we said, “All right. We’ll do this in exchange for equity.” So we ended up, me and my partners, owning basically a third of that business. So he and his partner each had a third. We had a third of that business and we built it together. So simultaneous to the marketing agency, we’re building this consumer product brand that just took off. And it took off on the back of really our foray into Facebook advertising.
Taylor Holiday:
And so that became… we were sort of living this growth of this consumer product, e-com business, and seeing very clearly what was driving it. And I was sort of playing this role of the VP of marketing of that business. So I got to really deeply understand what in that moment at that time was driving growth. And that sort of really helped us to hone in on, “Okay, what we’re doing there is what we can bring to our clients.” And that’s sort of our methodology that continues is we own and operate businesses. What we see work with our own money, we bring and use that and let it drive our thinking about services.
Jeromy Sonne:
No, that’s fascinating. I really do like that approach too. It’s like a very much so like kind of a… It’s almost like where theory meets practicality, right? Because you’re not just coming to people with saying like, “Oh, we think this will work,” right? You’re saying, “No, we’ve done this for us with our money.” And that should be enough to… I think that that’s a very convincing argument to say, “This is the way to do it.” You know what I mean? It’s not experimentation hour, which there’s nothing wrong with experimentation, I highly, highly encourage it, but I think with a new client, you could say, “Look, this is a battle tested formula that we’ve honed with ourselves.”
Taylor Holiday:
I think the reality is, especially in our world, so again, when I keep saying that, I apologize. I don’t know totally. I may be narrowing too much. What I mean is, again, e-commerce really for us early stage e-commerce businesses, the reality is that the whole system of a business is really intimately linked. And so when I think about marketing, you cannot consider things like recommendations to advertising budgets and ROAS targets without considering unit economics and demand planning and cashflow and so all of those things are so intimately linked that one of the unique things that we’re able to bring to the table is that half my time is spent having conversations around demand planning and cashflow for our brands alongside marketing initiatives. And so the way that those things are intertwined and affect each other, I think is so critical for businesses to consider that if you only have a view into one part of it, I think it’s hard to make recommendations that are really, really accurate and effective and consider the implications of the entirety of the business.
Jeromy Sonne:
Absolutely. I think that too. If you don’t have that information and you’re trying to have a conversation about it, you end up sounding like I do a lot of the time which is, “Well, it depends. And I don’t know how much do you want and let’s extrapolate forwards and backwards,” and things like that, right? It becomes a very kind of ethereal conversation so you kind of nailed down those numbers so those insights are, I think, really critical for planning for success.
Taylor Holiday:
And that’s the thing is a lot of times, and even more recently, we’ve transitioned our business into really talking about this idea of what it requires to grow an e-commerce business. And one of the things that I sort of fundamentally believe is that a lot of people come to performance marketing agencies or paid media agencies looking for profitable growth. At the end of the day, that’s what they want. They want more money in their pocket. But if you come to an agency and you only give them access, and you say, “Here’s my Facebook ad account. Now I want you to create more profit in my business.” It’s like going to the doctor and saying, “I want you to make me healthy, but you can only look at my knee.”
Taylor Holiday:
And the reality is that the whole system is so intertwined that what people want is profit. What they want is money in their pocket. But the mechanism for that, I think often gets overplayed how effective just one part of the funnel can be. And they’re trying to chase this profitable growth just by driving the front end of a funnel like on Facebook advertising but the reality is that profit probably lies in optimizing the efficiency in their supply chain or managing their OPEX or things like that that are so much deeper to creating the outcome that they want than just make my ROAS better.
Jeromy Sonne:
The number of times I’ve been hired to run Facebook ads and I’ve ended up telling people to start a subscription service or to bundle products together as then it is off the charts and I’m sure that that’s a similar conversation you’ve had.
Taylor Holiday:
Well, the reason you have to do that is because that’s the only leverage that you have control over, right? And what the reality might be is what you’re solving for there is increasing the margin or the LTV, right? You’re trying to say, “Hey, I either need to move my AOV up to create more gross margin on the product to make this work.” But the reality is if you had visibility to their P&L, you might find that like, “Oh, wait a second. The fact that your office rent represents 4% of your overall revenue is a massive overspend on that and actually, this whole business works if you can reduce that by 80%. Okay. Is that possible?” And time and time again, that’s what we see is that if you actually can get access into the visibility of somebody’s business, you will find that the path to profitability is very rarely more efficiency at the top of the funnel. That’s just the reality of it.
Jeromy Sonne:
What I love hearing is that you’ve taken this marketing skill that you obviously have, right? And you’ve kind of fused it with that early consulting that you did, right? And then kind of created this really clean offering that coming to these people and actually taking an extremely… because a lot of people say they take holistic looks at marketing funnels and stuff, but you’re taking a holistic look at the whole business and basically helping them figure out profitability and scale and growth and that actually makes a lot of sense to than why you say, “We’re not a digital marketing agency. We’re a digital [inaudible 00:24:42] agency on your website,” and that’s cool. I really like that.
Taylor Holiday:
Yeah, thanks man. Yeah. So the thing we think we have as the highest value proposition is not actually that I have access to hundreds of millions of dollars in ad spend, which there’s lots of people that say that, it’s that I have access to hundreds of P&Ls, and it’s this idea that… So we developed this thing we call the four quarter accounting principles, which is this idea that in early stage e-com, there are four core levers that if you want to get to, let’s say 25% profitability, which would be an incredible outcome in e-com. Reality is most people, if you’re profitable or sitting somewhere between 10 to 20%, but if you think about it like this, what you need to make that happen is you need your OPEX to be sub-25% your cost of delivery to be sub-25% and your CAC to be sub-25% of your overall revenue.
Taylor Holiday:
Now, if you think about each of those levers, if one of them goes up, so let’s say your CAC is 30% of your revenue then somewhere in the other three, you have to make up the delta. Otherwise, it just profit disappears. And by understanding all the available levers for us to pull on, we can sit and have a conversation that says, “Hey, right now we’re running out.” We use a metric we call MER, which is marketing efficiency rating, total revenue divided by total ad spend. And we can say, “Hey right now, some people use a cost or these other metrics to represent just how much money are you spending to acquire all of your revenue. But if you’re sitting on it’s four to one MER, so 25% of your revenue and your COGS are 40%, well, then let’s take a look at your OPEX because based on this model, if your OPEX is also 25 to 30% of your revenue, profit doesn’t exist.
Taylor Holiday:
We have to figure out what is the opportunity. And because we spend so much money on paid media, we know what the expected outcomes are. So if somebody comes to me and says like, “Hey, to make my business work, I need six to one on Facebook.” We say, “Have a nice day, sir or ma’am. That doesn’t exist.” We know that the 50th percentile outcome is about 1.9 to one on Facebook. That’s the stark reality that everybody needs to understand is that means that for the vast majority, the actual middle of a bell curve of customers, they’re spending 50% of their money on customer acquisition at the top of the funnel. Right? Okay. So if you want to get to a better outcome, you want to move further up that curve. What does it require? And what kind of businesses that have? Where are you getting your organic traffic? We know the inputs that leads the output that you want because we have sort of this wide ranging visibility to it.
Jeromy Sonne:
That’s absolutely fascinating. I love that approach. It’s incredibly interesting that holistic of it too, where you’re just… Rather than kind of banging your head against the wall, trying to get a 5X or a 6X outcome for somebody for the top of the funnel, right? You’re actually able to kind of look at and say, “Well, why do we need 6X?” Which I think is a really powerful question.
Taylor Holiday:
It just won’t happen. Right? One of the things that I like to say to people is, “Don’t play a game where from the beginning, the rules mean you lose.” Right? So if Facebook advertising is a game and someone tells you that the rules to win the game, or you have to get a success, I say, “I don’t want to play that game. Let’s reconfigure the parameters of this game, because if I have to go down that path, I’m going to lose. So is there a way we can reconfigure the game to where we can actually use this incredibly powerful tool to win?”
Jeromy Sonne:
Absolutely. No, I love it. Well, Taylor, this has been absolutely enlightening. I’ve learned an incredible amount. I really appreciate your time today. I give all of my guests a minute or two at the end of the podcast to pitch whatever they want so I’m just going to go ahead and give you that time now.
Taylor Holiday:
As agency owners, one of the things I’ll offer to all of you is that we have a community group called youradmission.co, that is a coaching community that is initially designed and intended for early stage business, e-com businesses that can’t yet afford an agency. But what we have also found is that there are a lot of agency owners in this group as well as internal media buying teams, where we just sort of go full open kimono and invite you into all of our buying methodologies, all of our access to docs and content and sheets and team that we are proud of this community. We’re up to about 150 to 200 entrepreneurs somewhere in that range of just awesome human beings that are co-journeying towards trying to make the most out of their business. If you’re looking for something like that, we’d love to have you.
Jeromy Sonne:
Yeah, absolutely. I’ve heard nothing but great things about the community as well, from some very smart, trusted marketers that I know. So yeah, definitely would recommend to anybody to look into it. So Taylor, thank you so much for being here again. If you’re out there listening take a lot of these messages to heart. Don’t look at just, “How can I get a better ROAS at the top of the funnel?” Start taking a more holistic look at your business or potentially your client’s business, learn to provide value from a business standpoint, not just a marketing standpoint and I think you’ll end up becoming indispensable and really kind of get people the outcomes that they want and the outcomes that you want. So thank you all for listening and happy marketing everybody.
